The False Messiahs Who Mislead

 

The Jewish People!

 

Part2.

משיחי-השקר-שלהטעות-את-העםהיהודי

Moshiach'i Ha'Shaker Shala'hata'ot Et Ha'Am Ha'Yehudi.

כל-מהשה-עם-היהודי-צריך-הוא-האשם!

 “The great False Messiahs.” were Jesus Christ (Yeshu, Yashke, Yeshua, Yeshu Toledot), David Reubeni, Solomon Molchol, 

Sabbatai Zevi, Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, Simon Bar Kochba,Theudas,Moses from Crete,David Alroy,Abraham Abulafia,Nissim Ben Abraham,

Asher Lammlein.

There were 40 + other false

messiahs throughout history....

 

CONTENTS:

(1.)The History where the “virgin birth myth” comes from.

(2.)Maimonides on Moshiach. Ha'Mishnah.

(3.)The debate on the Messiah at Tortosa. By Rabbi Ibn Vergafrom Ha'Shebet Yehudah. Chazal Rabbi Joshua Ha'Lorki(Apostate) converted to Christianity and was thereafter named: Maestro Geronimo De Santa Fe. He distressed his own “Jewish People” trying to sway them to Jesus-Yashke. He tried to force a law in effect that Jews would forcibly leave Judaism for the “religion of Jesus” in a handshake deal with the pope for over a year.

 

By Rabino Aminadav Hinton. “Posekim Pesher”

הרב עמינדב הינטון. פוסקי פשר

 

 Yeshayah 43. 11-13.11.Anochi, Anochi Hashem Vaien Mbaladi Moshi'a-I, even I, am Hashem; and apart from Methere is no Moshi'a(Savior, Salvation!!!)12.Anochi Higadti Vhoshati Vhishmati Vaien Bachem Zar Vateim Edim Naum Hashem Va'ani El-I have declared, and I have saved(no mediator, human replacement, no human substitutions), and I have proclaimed, when there was noZar(foreign gods) among you; therefore you (Ha'Bnei Yisroel) are MyEdim(Jewish Witnesses), saysHashem, that I amEl(G-d!) 13.Gam Me'yom Ani Hu Vaein Mi'yad'i Mazil Eal Umi Yeshivenah- Yes, before the Yom(day) was, Ani Hu(I am);and there is none that can deliver out of My Yad(hand); I work, and who(False Messiahs, NO)shall reverse it?

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The Pagan “Virgin birth” theory of Jesus, Yeshu, Yashke and Notsri Messianic Paganism and the origin of their Pagan Christian Doctrinal “Demigod” Theanthropism!

Compare books: The Decline and fall of the Roman Church. Malachi Martin-

ISBN: 0-553-22944-3. The Victorian Church. Owen Chadwick Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 66-14976

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The Christian/ Messianic Galachim Notsri theory of “the virgin birth” came from “Greek Mythology” and was decoded into their gods of Rome, and placed in there NT account.(Jews need to wake up from accepting this Chillul Hashem!)

 

Roman and Hellenistic literature is rich in the tradition of births among the gods. The legend of Perseus, whose mother conceived him by Jupiter (cf. Ovid, Metamorphoses, Book IV) Greek Anthology has the following: ZEUS, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity. Stories of the creation of gods and goddesses by other gods and goddesses include the traditions of generation of Apollo by Zeus and Leto, of Theseus by Zeus and Maia, of Dionysus by Zeus of Dionysus Zagreus by Zeus and Persephone, and of Persephone by Zeus and Demeter.The birth of gods, gods with mortal woman include the birth of Hercules (Half Man, Half gods)by the union ofZeus and Alcemena and that of Pan by Hermes with a shepherdess.Which is the same origin of the Jesus demigod birth theism.

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Hermus was a so called child of Zeus by Euryphaessa. He was also called "the son of Earth and starry Heaven," and the son of Hyperion. Dionysus was dithyrambus, His mother, Semele, died when Zeus appeared to her in a flash of lightning, and so Zeus (Jzeus-Jesus)opened his own flesh and enclosed the infant. In time, Dionysus was born "perfect" from Zeus' thigh. Dionysus Zagreus was important in Orphic theology. In Protrepticus ii. 14 ff. by Clement of Alexandria, this child had the form of a bull.Zeus intended to make him the ruler of the universe but the jealous Titans lured the child away, tore him to pieces, cooked him and ate him(Paganism, Romanism).Athena preserved his heart, however, which Zeus swallowed. According to Boslooper,Clement omitted one part of the myth that forms a connection between his account and the Theban legend of Dionysus. Because Zeus swallowed the heart of Dionysus Zagreus, when Semele bore Dionysus the new god was Zagreus reborn.

 

Mithraism "learned" astrology from the Chaldeans after the Chaldean conquest, and continued as an astronomical religion. In the Hellenistic period it took on its final form. Mithra was assimilated into Graeco-Roman beliefs in the 1st century BCE as Mithras. He was an ancient and highly honored god of Roman Paganism, where he was worshiped for more than 300 years as "the soldier's god."

 

The hope for a savior was expressed in Virgil's “Fourth Eclogue.-http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/eclogue.4.iv.html " The Church fathers later claimed this was a reference to Jesus Christ.

 

About two thousand years before the Christian era Mutemua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, was said to have given Helion birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented:

 

1). The Annunciation: the god Taht announcing to the virgin Queen that she is about to become a mother.

2). The Immaculate Conception: the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically impregnating the virgin by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth.

3).The Birth of the Man-god.

4).The Adoration of the newly born infant by gods and men, including three kings (or Magi?), who are offering him gifts(See a connection yet!) In this sculpture the cross(Ha'Brogez-Pagan Tammuz amulet) again appears as an Idol symbol.

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In another Egyptian temple, one dedicated to Hathor, at Denderah, one of the chambers was called "The Hall of the Child in his Cradle"and in a painting which was once on the walls of that temple, and is now in Paris, we can see represented the Virgin Mother with her Divine Child in her arms. This is the origin of Pagan Christianity/Messianic “virgin birth” belief.

 

Therefore, we find that long before the Christian era there were already pictured in pagan places of worship virgin mothers and their divine children, and that such pictures included scenes of an Annunciation, an Incarnation, and a Birth and Adoration. They describe them, and that these events were in connected with the god Taht, who was identified by Gnostics with “the Logos!That term clearly relating to Jesus”

 

And, besides these myths about Mutemua and Hathor, many other origins of a virgin birth story can be traced in Egypt.

 

Another Egyptian god, Ra (the Sun god, god of Sunday), was said to have been born of a virgin mother(Mary, Isis, Queen of Heaven, Jezebel), Net(or Neith), and to have had no father(Jesus)!!!!!!

 

Horus was said to be the parthenogenesis child of the Virgin Mother, Isis. In the catacombs of Rome black statues of this Egyptian divine MotherandInfantstill survive from the early Christian worship of the Virgin and Child to which they were converted. In these “the Virgin Mary” is represented as African people, and often with the face veiled in the true Isis fashion. When Pagan Christianity merged there pagan myths and rites and adopted pagan statues, relics, idols, reliquaries, and renamed them as saints, or even as apostleswhich the Church, Christians, Messianic Christians proclaim within their doctrines as coming from the counsel of Nicea they did so to form a union between the Pagan Greeks, Polytheism, and there “new created, invented mystery religion” as the people didn't want to remove there gods for this new chameleon religion. This religion came about after Rome invaded Yisroel in the year 70 and confiscated our Beit Ha'Mikdash, they in turn took our Jewish ideals, Jewish History, Jewish Scriptures and created a mystery pagan cult off the backs of enslaved Jews. The first council of Nicea began in 325. 255 years after they created this religion, after they destroyed Yerushalayim.

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Statues of the goddess Isis with the child Horus in her arms were common in Egypt, and were exported to all neighboring and to many remote countries, where they are still to be found with new names attached to them. Christian (Roman Catholicism) in Europe, Buddhist in Turkestan, Taoist in China and Japan. Figures of the virgin Isis do duty as representations of Mary, of Hariti, of Kuan-Yin, of Kwannon, and of other virgin mothers of gods.

 

And these were not the only Christianstatuettes and engravings of divine mothers and children. Such figures were stamped on very ancient Athenian coins. Among the oldest relics of Carthage, of Cyprus, and of Assyria figures of a divine mother and her babe-god are found. Such figures were known under a great variety of names to the followers of various sects; the mothers as Venus, Juno, Mother-Earth, Fortune, etc., and the children as Hercules, Dionysos etc. In India similar figures are not uncommon, many of them representing Devaki with the babe Krishna at her breast, others representing various less well-known Indian divinities.

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The Sacred Bull:

In Egypt we also find that Apis the sacred bull of Memphis and a god of the ancient Egyptian Pantheon was believed to have been begotten by a deity descending as a ray of moonlight on the cow which was to become the mother of the sacred beast. As a result he was regarded as the son of the god, where the belief of Jesus being the son of a god comes from.

 

This miracle was said to be constantly repeated.

An Apis according to Plutarch and the ancient Mathematici was conceived every time a cow"in season" happened to be struck by a beam of light from the moon.

 

The Mathematici, of course, realized that the light of the moon was really the reflection of the light of the sun, and they therefore believed that the moon received her male generative power as proxy for the sun, the creator of all things.

 

Apis, the living calf, was regarded as a re-incarnation of Osiris or at any rate as an emblem of the spirit or soul of Osiris. He is occasionally represented as a man with the head of a bull.

 

It is more than likely that the story of the rape of Europa by Jove (in the guise of a bull) originated in this myth of a cow impregnated by a ray from the moon. The idea of a god incarnate in a bull easily gave rise to variants of this kind.

 

"Shortly after the Exodus, even the Israelites, likely because of being contaminated by the religious concepts with which they became acquainted while in Egypt, exchanged Hashem's glory for "a representation of a bull." (Ps. 106:19, 20) Later, the first king of the ten-tribe kingdom, Jeroboam, set up a calf worship at Dan and Bethel.

(1Ki 12:28, 29) Of course, according to Hashem's Tora to Yisroel, no veneration whatsoever, not even in a representative way, was to be given to the bull or any other animal. Ex 20:4, 5; compare Ex 32:8."

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The early roots of Christianity-Messianic is brought to us from Hellenistic mystery religions such as Mithraism inspired by ancient Egypt. The influence of pagan Christian antiquity comes from the doctrine of the church fathers in the 4th and 5th century. The Nicene andChalcedonian creeds including questions of the Trinity(Jesus Divinity as a Roman Christian, Messianic Christian demigod) and Christology.

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A strong influence was Roman imperial cults. Hellenistic philosophy notably Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, Christological disputes continued to dominate Christian Theology well into the early middle ages down to the third council of Constantinople CE 680.

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The influences of pagan religions Christianized in the early middle ages Germanic Paganism/ Celtic Paganism.

 

Christianity was influenced also by exerted Non Christian cults and Mythologies assertions of pagan influences on Christianity have been made since the beginning of the Christian era. As Christianity spread through the Hellenistic world, an increasing number of church leaders were educated in Pagan Greek philosophy, leading to a fusion of the two models of thought. Christianity originated as a mystery religion,a secret cult. Christianity began as a Roman adaptation of Roman and Greek Mystery. Christianity/Messianic is a re- branded version of many Mithraic beliefs.

 

Mithraic Pagan worship was the official status of The Roman cult, Christianity was the borrowing of pagan adoptions of imagery icons or festivals such as the adoption by Christendom of winter solstice or saturnalia festival, various Gnostic cults such as The Marcionites and Valentinians which adopted the personage of Jesus(JZeus).

 

Idolatry in Christianity is the worship of created objects

(idols, pictures, man made objects, forms, images, relics, reliquaries) either made by human hands or created by G-d. Nativity scenes(Pagan Altar), Pictures of Roman white faced blue eyed Jzeus/ Isis. Patron Saints. Saint Symbolism. Souls day. Intersession of saints, Yule, Father Christmas, Easter Eggs-Rabbits don't lay eggs!

 

Carnivals reliquaries as Eleusinian Mystery Cults. “Tora” has told us on numerous occasions not to have idols, pictures of G-d, stone made gods etc.

 

When Constantine became the sole Roman Emperor in 323, Christianity became legal by the edict of Milan. Although Constantine allowed public practices, specific pagan temples were torn down upon his orders, while in other cases temple treasures were confiscated. Since Alexander the not so great,Constantine had every bit to do with Christianity Paganism, it isn't surprising that Rome today has remaining artifacts of Roman Pagan temples, gods and goddesses which Rome adapted from Egypt and from the Greeks.

 

After the death of Constantine in 337(12 years after the counsel of Nicea), two of his sons, Constantine 2 and Constans took over the leadership of the empire. Constans, ruler of the western provinces was like his father. A Roman Pagan Christian.

 

Constans was killed in 350, and soon after his brother became the sole emperor of the entire empire three years later.

 

The Saxon wars, The Christianizing of Norway and later The Baltic's in 782, Charlemagne had 4,5000 Saxons who continued to practice their indigenous Germanic paganism after converting under duress to Christianity beheaded at the Massacre of Verden. Alcuin and other theologians at the court of Charlemagne.

 

What's really shameful is some “Jews” are willing to conduct fauxpas, to accept this paganism and try calling it Judaism!!! “Real Jews” won't accept this fanaticism, or the collective ChristianMessianic fanfaron inculpation. Messianic is a “Look Jewish” Masquerade subulating superstition. A Doctrinal Theist Theanthropism- And “many Jews” were killed throughout this history in the name of Jesus, Yeshu, Yeshua, Yashke whatever you want to call him.

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Messiah, The Anointed King: Moses Maimonides:

Spain-Egypt, 12^th Century. From the Mishneh Tora:

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The Anointed King [Moshiach] will in time arise and establish the kingdom of Dovid in its former position and in the dominion it originally had. He will build up the sanctuary and gather the scattered of Yisroel. In his day, the laws(Otot) will become what they were in olden times. They will bring offerings (Ha'Za'ah Minchah), they will bring Chag Ha'Yovel, according to the Mitzvah given in the Tora. Whoever has no faith in him, or does not await his coming rejects not only the other prophets, but also the Tora, and Moshe, our master, for the Tora testifies to him, as it is written: “Hashem Eloheicha will turn your captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, whereHashemyour G-d has scattered you. If any of you that are dispersed(Golus) be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there willHashemyourG-dgather you, and from there will He gather you. AndHashemyourG-dwill bring you into the land (Yisroel) which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it.”

(Dvarim 30.3).[Has any of these things happened yet?]

 

Do not think, however, that the Anointed King must give signs and miracles[signs of false Messiahs] and create new things in the world, or bring the dead back to life [Egyptian Magic, signs of false Messiah], and the like. It will not be so. For see: Rabbi Akiva, who was a great sage among the sages of the Mishnah, it was he that carried arms for Ben Koziba [Simon Bar Kochba], the king, and it was he that said of him that he was the anointed king [Moshiach]. He and all the sages of his generation thought that this was the anointed king, until he was slain in his guilt. And after he was slain they all knew that he was not the Anointed King [Moshiach]. But never had the sages asked him for a sign or for miracles. The root of these things is the following: This Tora, its statutes and its laws, are for all times. There is nothing one could add to it, and nothing one could take away. If a king should arise out of the house of Dovid, one who meditates upon the Tora, and like his ancestor, Dovid, occupies himself with the commandments according to the written and the oral law, who has bent Yisroel to go in the ways of the Tora and to restore its breach, and who has fought the battles of Hashem, then it might be presumed that he is the Anointed [Moshiach]. If he has succeeded, If he has built up the sanctuary in its place, If he has gathered the scattered of Yisroel, behold then he is surely the Anointed [Moshiach]. He will order the whole world, so that all together may serve Hashem, as it is written: “For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language [Shafah Tahorah, Lashon Ivrit, Lashon Ha'Kodesh], that they may all call upon the name of Hashem, to serve Him with one consent.”

Zephaniah 3.9.

 

Do not think in your heart that in the days of the Anointed something will be changed in the ways of the world, or that an innovation will appear in the work of creation. No! The world will go its ways as before, and that which is said in Isaiah, “And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid,” is but a parable(Meshal), and its meaning is that Yisroel will dwell in safety with the wicked among the heathen, and all will turn to the true faith [Judaism]; they will not rob nor destroy, and they will eat only what is permitted, in peace, like Yisroel, as it is written: “The lion shall eat straw like the ox.” Isaiah 65. 25. And everything else like this that is said concerning the Anointed, is also a parable (Meshal). In the days of the Anointed [Moshiach] all will know what the parable signified and what it was meant to imply.

 

The sages said: “Nothing, save the cessation of the servitude to the nations, distinguishes the days of the Anointed from our time.” from the words of the prophets, we see that in the early days of the Anointed a battle will take place “against Gog and Magog” [The story of Dan. pp. 415, 417-21/ Agadat Mashiah, BhM 3:141-143/ Ezekiel 16.53/ Targum Palestine states: When the mighty King of Jacob's house shall reign, and the Moshiach, the power scepter of Yisroel, be anointed, He shall slay the princes of Moav. Yalqut Ha'Makhiri, ad Isa 11.4, p. 89]. A prophet will arise who will make straight the people of Yisroel and prepare their hearts, as it is written: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day [Ha'Yemei Ha'Moshiach Acharit Ha'Yamim] of Hashem.”But he comes only to bring peace into the world, as it is written: “And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children.”

Malachi 4.6.

 

Among the sages there are some who say Elijah will come before the Anointed. But concerning these things and others of the sake kind, none knows how they will be until they occur. For the prophets view these things, and the sages have no tradition concerning them, save what they have deduced from the Scriptures, and so herein their opinions is divided. At any rate,neither the order of this event nor its details are the root of faith [Judaism]. A man must never ponder over legendary accounts, nor dwell upon interpretations dealing with them or with matters like them. He must not make them of primary importance, for they do not guide him either to fear or to love G-d. Nor may he seek to calculate the end. The sages said: “Let the spirit of those breathe its last, who seek to calculate the end.” Rather let him wait and trust in the matter as a whole, as we have expounded. The sages and the prophets did not yearn for the days of the Anointed [Moshiach] in order to seize upon the world, and not in order to rule over the heathen, or to be exalted by the peoples. Or to eat and drink and rejoice, but to be free for the Tora and the wisdom within it, free from any goading and intrusion, so that they may be worthy of life in the coming world [Ha' Olam Ha'Bah Gan Eden]. When that time is here, none will go hungry, there will be no war, no zealousness, and no conflict, for goodness will flow abundantly, and all delights will be plentiful as the numberless motes of dust, and the whole world will be solely intent on the knowledge of the L-rd. Therefore those of Yisroel will be great sages, who know what is hidden, and they will attain what knowledge of their Creator it is in man's power to attain, as it is written: “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as the waters cover the sea.” (1 Sanhedrin 91b. Maimonides).

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THE DEBATE ON THE MESSIAH AT TORTOSA. By Rabbi Solomon Ibn Verga Spain- Italy, 15^th- 16^th Century. From Ha'Shebet Yehudah. A Jew who tried making the Jews believe that Jesus was the Moshiach!A 19 month debate.

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There is a copy of the Epistle that the great Sage Abu Astruc sent to the holy congregation in Gerona, in the year 5173 [1413-Ibid 97b], to the effect that the great men of Yisroel were distressed, and in trouble with the pope, because of a demand of Joshua Ha'Lorki's, whom the Christians, after he had been converted to Christianity, called Maestro Geronimo De Santa Fe -which, taking the initial letters, spells Megadef, that is, “blasphemer.” For he had requested the pope to summon the wise men of Yisroel before him, so that he, Maestro Geronimo, could then prove to them that the Messiah had already come, and that Jesus was he; and this he intended to prove from the Talmud. Now these are the exact words of the Epistle:

 

You, who are esteemed among the sons of Yisroel, you, the nobles in Judah, who in your “houses and walls have a monument and a name,” where stood the stools for the Tora and the testimony, where the stools for the Talmud have stood from earliest times- may you always keep alive the courage in your hearts. What you have known previously, know it now as well- that our helper does neither slumber nor sleep.” but saves us from those who scheme evil toward us. A shoot that came forth from among us thought to destroy us and to crush our religion down to the very earth. For he, Joshua Ha'Lorki, invented thoughts to lead us astray, and to demonstrate that he was in truth a “Christian” and was keeping the new faith. And so he asked the pope to bid the chief among the wise men of Jewry to come before him, for it was his purpose to prove to us from our own Talmud that the Messiah had already come. And he told the pope that after he had proved this it would be legitimate to force the Jews to accept the religion of Jesus, since he, Joshua, was going to make all this true and apparent in the presence of His Holiness. I, however, now come unto you to inform you of all that has come to pass, and may you keep in mind the details, so that you can reply to any heretic. Know then that we have indeed escaped a danger that cannot be gauged, for we were facing numerous bishops and grandees, and many were eager to find us guilty.

 

The delegates had a meeting to decide who was to be first to speak before the pope, and who was to begin with what, in their language, is called arenga. They all decided that Don Vidal Benveniste was to begin, because he is versed in all manner of knowledge, and can use the Latin language. They also decided not to behave like the learned Jews in the academics, where each interrupts the other’s word and scoffs at him if he does not agree, lest the pope hold them in contempt, and also that they would address Joshua Ha'Lorki and the bishops with calm and courtesy. None was to grow violent, not even if he were derided, and each was to strengthen the courage of the other, so that his heart might not sink.

 

Then we who were the delegates went to the pope with the help of G-d, “who delivered the poor from him that is too strong for him.” and the pope received us with an agreeable countenance, and wished to hear the names of the places we came from, and asked each as to his name and commanded all to be written down. At this we were greatly alarmed and tried to discover the reason for it from the scribe. He, however, told us that it boded no ill, for popes and kings were wont to have everything that happened during their lives written down in books, with due accuracy. Then the pope said to us: “You, who are esteemed among the people of the Jews, a people that was chosen by a Chooser who has existed from time immemorial, and that, if it was rejected, was rejected because of its own failings- have no fear of this debate, for no wrong and no insult shall be done to you in my presence, Calm your thoughts and speak with a firm heart; have no fear and do not despair.

 

“Maestro Geronimo has said he wised to prove that the Messiah has already come, and to prove it from your own Talmud. In our presence will it be shown whether truth abides with his word, or whether he has dreamed a dream. But you must not be afraid of him, because in a debate there is one law for both sides. Go then, rest in your lodging, and come to me again early tomorrow morning.” And for-with he gave orders that we be given suitable lodgings and of the food he himself ate, or of that which we are allowed to eat by the precepts of our law. And some of us rejoiced at the pope's words, and others were sad thereat- as is usual for Jews. On the second day we came before the pope and found the entire great hall, where the debate was to take place, tapestries in many colors, and seventy chairs set up for the bishops, who are called cardinales, obispos, and arzo-bishops, and all of these wore raiment embellished with gold. All the great men of Rome were there, and what with the burghers and the grandees, there were almost a thousand persons, and it was thus every day of the debate. And then our “hearts melted and became as water.” Notwithstanding we said: “Blessed be He who has accorded of his glory to flesh and blood.”

 

Then the pope began to speak, saying: “You, who are the wise men among the Jews, know that I have not come here, nor did I send for you, to decide which of the two religions is the true, since I am well aware that my religion and my faith are the true, and that your Tora, while it once was true, has ceased to be so. You have been summoned only because Geronimo said he wanted to prove that the Messiah has already come, from the Talmud of your masters, who knew better than you. Therefore, speak only of this matter in my presence.” The the pope turned his countenance upon Maestro Geronimo and said: “Do you begin the debate, and let them reply to you.”

 

And Maestro Geronimo began: “Come now, and let us reason together, says the L-rd.... But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword.”

 

Then Don Vidal Benveniste began the arenga in the Latin tongue, and the pope took pleasure in his wisdom and his language. And in the course of his speech Don Vidal complained of Geronimo, saying that it was not right for one who wishes to debate, to begin by using hostile words, for he had said: “But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword.” He had proved nothing for the time being, and yet was setting himself up as a judge and avenger [Benediction on seeing a king: Berakot 58a]. At that the pope interposed: “You are right, but you must not be astonished at this evil way of his, for he was one of you.”

 

The third day was the beginning of the debate proper, and Maestro Geronimo began, saying: “In your Talmud, it is said: Six thousand years is the span of the world- chaos, two thousand years, Tora, two thousand years, and two thousand years, days of the Messiah. From this it is evident that the Messiah has come within the lat two thousand years, and who could he be but our Savior?[Cholel Chilul Hashem-Profanation, blasphemy] Ha'Lorki took a long time in talking on this subject, and preached to his heart's content, until the pope said to him: “Geronimo, it has been known to me for a long time that you are a great preacher; yet not because of this have we come together, but to hear you prove what you have promised. Therefore, have a care that you lose not yourself in preaching.” [The place Lorki got this passage was from Sanhedrin 97a]

 

Then he turned his countenance upon the delegates and said: “Reply to the passage he cited.” And Don Vidal Benveniste spoke: “Sir, let us first consider the characteristics of the Messiah, and then it will become evident whether he has already come, and if what is written about the Messiah holds for him who has come, we too shall avow him.”

 

And the pope said: “That is no answer to the question put to you, for what has been said did not concern the characteristics of the Messiah, but only the sentence saying that the Messiah has already come. You are following the manner of contentious Jews, who when one asks them about one thing, slip over to the next.” Thereupon Don Vidal answered him: “Sir, our beginning was in the manner of wise men, for it is proper to speak first of the nature of the matter in hand, and then of the particular circumstances: scientists also follow this rule. But if this way does not please you, our lord, we shall not take it. And so I shall now speaks of the passage itself, and say that wise Geronimo extracted from it what he pleased, and what supports his point, but disregarded what contradicts it. For toward the end of the passage, we read: But because of our iniquities, which were many, as much time has passed as has passed, and this clearly proves that he has not come.”

 

Then Geronimo replied: “According to this, you have not understood your words, or you pretend not to have understood them. For 'And two thousand years, days of the Messiah 'is the pronouncement of the prophet Elijah, who said it to his disciples- and these passed it on in his name- as a passage in the Tanna Debe Eliyahu proves, and the Talmudists know this; now those disciples or men of the Talmud who included this passage in their books, are the ones who added, 'But because of our iniquities, which were many, and they added it to substantiate their belief that Jesus was not the Messiah. But the prophet Elijah, being a prophet and knowing what was true, said only,' And two thousand years, days of the Messiah, in accordance with what he was aware of his gift of prophecy.”

 

And Rabbi Zerhiah Ha'Levi replied saying: “It is probably more correct to assume that a passage originated with one man, rather than with two. When such is the case, the Talmud usually says: 'Rab Ashi, however, says,' or this one or that one says, 'But because of our iniquities, which were many.' That is why at the outset we said before our lord that we wanted to see if the characteristics of the Messiah apply or do not apply to him who has come, and then we will accept the passage according to Geronimo's interpretation; if the characteristics of the Messiah do not apply to him [and they don't], then our interpretation is the true one.” And Geronimo replied: “But Elijah came long before the Jews went into exile, therefore we must necessarily say that the passage, 'Because of our iniquities, which were many,' was spoken by another, by one who was in exile. And so it originated with the Talmudist, and moreover, corresponds with their views, as I have already said.”

 

The Rabbi Joseph Albo argued: “The Talmudist, through whom you are trying to disprove us, took that passage into the Talmud. But they would not have taken into anything that was contrary to their views. Therefore, they believed that there were two possible periods of time for the Messiah-the time G-d had promised, or the time when Yisroel will be prepared and will turn to G-d. That is why the passage sets no time limit to the days of the Messiah, but speaks of 'two thousand years, days of the Messiah- in other words, days prepared for the coming of the Messiah. If the Jews are worthy of him, he will come at the beginning; if they do not grow worthy within the period, but at the very end, then the Messiah will come at the end. But the two thousand years will not pass without his coming.”

 

And the pope said: “Why do you not say that if the Christians are worthy of it he will come at once, but if not, that he will tarry until the end of the two thousand years?”

 

The delegates replied: “We believe that the redeemer will come only for the sake of those who are in exile[Jews] [Not for Christians-Messianics, Goyim]. For he who lives in peace, does he require a redeemer? The Messiah is needed by a people that lives in exile and servitude.” Then Rabbi Matatiah said to Geronimo: “My wise sir, you prove from the Talmud that the Messiah has already come. Why, instead of this, do you not prove the contrary from that selfsame Talmud: For it says: 'Let the spirit of those breathe its last, who seek to calculate the end.” But here the pope interposed, saying: “I have heard this before and should like to know what it is interpreted to mean.” And Rabbi Matatiah replied: “We have no interpretation of it, we follow the plain meaning in the words themselves: A curse be upon him who makes calculations and declares precisely when the Messiah will come. This is very harmful to the people. For when the appointed time arrives, and he does not come, they fall into despair, and slack grow the hearts of those who hoped for weal and who were bound by the fetters and bonds of hope. And still another transgression is involved. G-d has hidden this thing from all peoples and from all prophets- yet this man is counting upon revealing it.”

 

At this the pope was greatly angered, and said: “O people of fools, O foolish and despicable Talmudists! Does Daniel, for example, who calculated the term, deserve that it be said of him, 'Let his spirit breathe its last? Truly, it appears that you are as sinful and rebellious as they.”

 

Here Don Todros broke in, saying: “O sir, if the Talmudists are so foolish in your eyes, why do you refer to them to prove that the Messiah has already come? Nothing can be proved by fools.”

 

But at that the pope became still angrier. So Don Vidal took the floor and said conciliatingly: “It is not like His Holiness to be angered because of a matter that is being debated, especially since we were given freedom of speech. But we must have been guilty of some other thing, and so our words erred. And that is why we beg you, O lord, to give us your favor.” And with this we left on that day, and the next morning we went our way again. But when we arrived in our lodgings, a bitter quarrel broke out between us and Rabbi Matatiah and Rabbi Todros, because they had been so incautious and failed to rein their tongues.

 

Geronimo began with another passage, at the end of which Rabbi Judah says: “It is written in the Scriptures: And Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one-Isa 10.34. And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse- Isa 11.1. This verse clearly demonstrates that which you cannot deny, namely that on the day the Temple was destroyed, the Messiah was born.” [1 Shabbat 104.b/ 2Yerushalmi Berakot 11.] And the wise Abu Astruc replied:

“This passage has been discussed by great men in this world, in the debate between Maestro Moses and Fra Paola. And Don Vidal said that at that time the Maestro explained that it did not mean the Messiah had actually been born. But even if we did say that he had actually been born, this would not involve a contradiction, because it would be possible for him to be born on that day, but to live in the Garden of Eden.

 

Rabbi Moses Maimonides also writes that the Messiah was not born on the day of the destruction of the Temple, but that the passage means that from that day on a man is born in every generation who would be worthy to be the Messiah, if Yisroel were worthy of it. And so he thinks that the purpose of these words was to goad hearts to turn to G-d, and to expound to them that the Messiah was not dependent upon a fixed time. And that is the way Don Hasdai explains it also........

 

The pope replied angrily: “You have not come to my court to inform me of what your expounders say, but of what you yourselves say. Of what interest to me are the explanations of those who lived before you, all this vain and idle quibbling to the effect that he was indeed born, but is not as yet come! If this is dependent on the merits of the Jews, why was he born at all? This need not have come to pass, and he might have been born on the day on which they were prepared and worthy!” And the delegates replied: “If they were worthy this very day, and if the Messiah were born this very day, could a child who is one day old lead them?”

 

The following morning the pope said: “You Jews, you say terrible things. What sensible man would say that the Messiah was, to be sure, born, but that he lived in the garden of Eden for a long time, and that he has now been living for fourteen hundred years?” Then Rabbi Astruc jumped up and said: “Sir, since you believe so many improbable things about your Messiah, let us believe this one about our Messiah.” And the pope was so aroused by this that we feared his bitter anger would break forth like a fire, and we said to him: “lord, what our comrade spoke was not fairly spoken and not in agreement with all the rest of us, and he spoke in jest, when he should not have done so, since the pope is not one of us.” We went to our lodgings and we all screamed at Rabbi Astruc, saying: “Our wrong be upon you! For you have put the sword in the hands of our foes. We agreed not to speak in the manner you have spoken. See, the pope was favoring our cause, and he came to our assistance more than to Geronimo's. But now that the pope is angered, who will protect us, if not heaven in its mercy? But we must not rely on miracles, where our own merit is so dubious.” Thus on that day we left the hall derided and ashamed, and the following morning we returned in great fear and distress. But

G-d granted that we were in favor, and we found the pope with unclouded countenance.

END OF THE STORY:

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MORE INFORMATION REGARDING IT:

Throughout the period of the disputation, Jews continually arrived in Tortosa, where they converted to Christianity. The authorities, on their part, intensified their persecutions, and ordered that everything which had been disqualified by Gerónimo should be obliterated from the Talmud. The disputation in itself acted as an incentive for anti-Jewish incitement, and in several towns the inhabitants adopted severe measures in order to force the Jews to convert. Many broke down and accepted baptism. Three works were written after the Disputation of Tortosa in an attempt at soul-searching: Sefer ha-Ikkarim ("Book of Principles") of Rabbi Joseph Albo, in which the author clarified the religious fundamentals discussed at the disputation; Sefer ha-Emunot("Book of Beliefs") by Rabbi Shem Tov, who regarded the cultivation of philosophy as the cause of conversion; and Iggeret Musar("Letter of Ethics") by Rabbi Solomon Alami, who considered that disrespect toward religion and ethics was the cause of the destruction of Sephardim-Spanish Jewry.

 

David B. Green from Ha'Aretz states: After over a year and a half of theological debates between a representative of the church and representatives from the Jewish community, the 'winner' of the Disputation of Tortosa was announced. On this day in 1414, the Disputation of Tortosa, a 19-month debate on the respective truth of Judaism and Christianity, came to an end in Tortosa, Catalonia. The disputation, the longest of several public, Church-mandated discussions held during the Middle Ages, was not an open inquiry into the beliefs of the two faiths, but rather, as defined by the Antipope Benedict XIII, intended to use Jewish sources to prove that Jesus was the Messiah and that Christianity had superseded its mother religion.

The Christian side of the disputation was led by Geronimo de Santa Fe, formerly known as Joshua Lorqui, a Jewish convert and physician to Benedict, whose claims that Jewish texts pointed to the coming of Jesus as redeemer prompted the antipope to order the contest.

(Benedict reigned from 1394 to 1423, but most of that time was not recognized by the Rome-based Church as the legitimate pope – hence the title of “antipope. His decision to host a disputation was probably intended to attract support to his claim to the papacy.)

The disputation took place over three stages. Geronimo led the presentation of the case for Christianity, while on the Jewish side, subpoenas went out to communities throughout Catalonia and Aragon for scholars to defend the religion. Among them were Joseph Albo and Zerahia Halevi Ferrer. These defenders were at a considerable disadvantage because, while their official mission was to prove the truth of the Jewish faith, they were at risk of being charged with heresy if they made the case too energetically.

There are both Jewish and Christian transcriptions of the debates, in Hebrew and Latin, respectively. According to the records, the discussions addressed the meaning of the Messianic age and the question of whether it had come yet or not; whether the Messiah was intended for the Jews alone or all humanity; which Hebrew sources – the midrashic texts versus the Talmud, for example -- are to be relied upon for understanding Judaism; and even whether such sources are to be understood for their literal meaning or only allegorically.

By January 1414, when the third stage of the disputation began, most of the Jewish scholars had withdrawn from the discussion, having been away from their homes for so long. Among those who remained, most refused at a certain point to continue responding to the arguments made by Geronimo. Many others, however, had converted to Christianity during the course of the disputation, along with many hundreds of other Iberian Jews.

Benedict ultimately declared the Church the winner of the disputation, of course he would. Geronimo demanded the burning of the Talmud as the consequence of a Jewish defeat, but the pope sufficed with an order that copies of the Talmud be collected so that passages considered insulting to Christianity could be subjected to censorship. The disappointing showing by the Jews inspired a number of texts in subsequent years -- including one by Joseph Albo, who wrote a book of Jewish basics called “The Book of Principles” - that responded to some of the troubling questions raised during the disputation.

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Today there are all sorts of “Anti-Missionary manuals, websites, Rabbis that contend to the same outline and condition-> let the Christians/Messianics keep there Jesus, Yashke. While we will await the coming of the true Moshiach with real authentic results, instead of blind faith, tricks, magic, carpet ride miracles and tactics. We will await the Jewish Moshiach who will redeem the Jewish People out of Golus back to Yisroel. All the “fakes” have fallen short of fulfilling (1.)the third Temple, (2.)the Jewish People brought back to the land of Yisroel, (3.)the Cohenim and sacrificial system of the sons of Aharon brought back in place and (4.)Eliyahu announcing these things to come.

 

(5.)All else failed in providing any real lasting peace for Yisroel. The Jews of Tortosa were at a disadvantage from the moment they started, as they stood under the authority of a Christian Pagan Pope who dictated what was said, how it was said, what was accepted and what was denounced, and they stood in front of there own “Anti-Zionist, Apostate-Meshumad Jewish Akh” who converted to Christianity and became a trader to the Jewish People for Yashke!

This should serve as a reminder to “all Jews” faced today by Galachim, Messianic Brogez Am, Chashash. That Chasidey Umot Ha'Olam Chazal Chachamim Rabbonim stand on Judaism and “Tora” to proclaim our freedoms, our Chinuch Chumra Dinim, Dina De'Malchuta Dina, Emet Me'Eretz Titsmach, our Gemilut Chasadim, Girsa De'Yankuta while we are in Gola. “Our Hashkafa, Lehavdil Ha'Shomer Achi Anochi.” Kol Yisroel Chaverim “Emet.” Kol Yisroel Arevim Zebaze! And leave Christian Galachim Notsri to Megile! To encourage in our generation Mekarev!!! Melamed Zechut against Meshumad-Min Ha'Katseh El Ha'Katseh, Min Ha'Shomayim! We can debate if it is profitable to Klal Yisroel if it isn't, leave Pagan Christians to themselves and to there godman demigod beliefs. We Jews have nothing to prove or to disprove! Tora, Judaism stands on its own. {Part 3. coming in two weeks from today}

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Such hallucinations, illusions [Yashke-Jesus, Paganism, Christianity etc] only hold water till enough light is painfully visible to distill the darkness.

Rabino Aminadav Hinton

 

“The strength of Judaism is in that as soon as one period of history comes to an end, another begins. Fresh forces come into play and the result is a continuous process.”

 

Krochmal, Moreh Nevuchei Haz'man.